Excerpts of POTUS Press Conference On, Among Other Things, NSA Surveillance

All right, Mark Felsenthal. Q: Thank you, Mr. President. One of the most significant events of this year was the revelation of the surveillance by the National Security Agency. As you review how to rein in the National Security Agency, a federal judge says that, for example, the government has failed to cite a single instance in which analysis of the NSA's bulk metadata actually stopped an imminent attack. Are you able to identify any specific examples when it did so? Are you convinced that the collection of that data is useful to national security to continue as it is? PRESIDENT OBAMA: Let me talk more broadly, and then I'll talk specifically about the program you're referring to. As you know, the independent panel that I put together came back with a series of recommendations, 46 in total. I had an extensive meeting with them down in the Situation Room to review all the recommendations that they've made. I want to thank them publicly because I think they did an excellent job and took my charge very seriously, which is I told them, I want you to look from top to bottom at what we're doing and evaluate whether or not the current structures that we have and the current programs that we have are properly addressing both our continuing need to keep ourselves secure and to prevent terrorist attacks or proliferation of weapons of mass destruction or other threats to the homeland, and are we also making sure that we're taking seriously rule of law and our concerns about privacy and civil liberties. So what we're doing now is evaluating all the recommendations that have been made. Over the next several weeks I'm going to assess, based on conversations not just with the intelligence community but others in government and outside of government, how we might apply and incorporate their recommendations. And I'm going to make a pretty definitive statement about all of this in January, where I'll be able to say, here are the recommendations that we think make sense, here are ones that we think as promising but still need to be refined further, here's how it relates to the work we're doing not just -- not just internally but also in partnership with other countries. And so I'm -- I'm taking this very seriously, because I think, as I've said before, this is debate that needed to be had. One specific program, the 215 program, is the metadata, the bulk collection of phone numbers and exchanges that have taken place. That has probably gotten the most attention, at least with respect to domestic audiences. And what I've said in the past continues to be the case, which is that the NSA, in executing this program, believed, based on experiences from 9/11, that it was important for us to be able to track, if there was a phone number of a known terrorist outside of the United States calling into the United States, where that call might have gone and that having that data in one place and retained for a certain period of time allowed them to be confident in pursuing various investigations of terrorist threats. And I think it's important to note that in all the reviews of this program that have been done, in fact, there have not been actual instances where it's been alleged that the NSA in some ways acted inappropriately in the use of this data. But what is also clear is from the public debate, people are concerned about the prospect, the possibility of abuse. And I think that's what the judge in the district court suggested. And although his opinion obviously differs from rulings on the FISA Court, we're taking those into account. The question we're going to have to ask is can we accomplish the same goals that this program is intended to accomplish in ways that give the public more confidence that in fact the NSA is doing what it's supposed to be doing. I have confidence in the fact that the NSA is not engaging in domestic surveillance or snooping around, but I also recognize that as technologies change and people can start running algorithms and programs that map out all the information that we're downloading on a daily basis into our telephones and our computers that we may have to refine this further to give people more confidence. And I'm going to be working very hard on doing that. And we've got to provide more confidence to the international community. In some ways, what has been more challenging is the fact that we do have a lot of laws and checks and balances and safeguards and audits when it comes to making sure that the NSA and other intelligence agencies are not spying on Americans. We've had less legal constraint in terms of what we're doing internationally. But I think part of what's been interesting about this whole exercise is recognizing that in a virtual world, some of these boundaries don't matter anymore. And just because we can do something doesn't mean we necessarily should, and the values that we've got as Americans are ones that we have to be willing to apply beyond our borders, I think, perhaps more systematically than we've done in the past. OK, Ed Henry. Q: Thank you, Mr. President. I want to follow up on that because -- and merry Christmas, by the way. PRESIDENT OBAMA: Merry Christmas, Ed. Q: When Edward Snowden first started leaking the information, you made a statement on June 7th in California. And you claimed to the American people that you had already reformed many of these surveillance programs, that you came to office, quote, "my team evaluated them; we scrubbed them thoroughly; we actually expanded some of the oversight." And you did expand some of the things. PRESIDENT OBAMA: Yes. Q: You also said, we may have to rebalance some, there may be changes. But you concluded with, quote, "you can complain about Big Brother and how this is a potential program run amok, but when you actually look at the details, then I think we've struck the right balance." That was only six months ago. Now, there's judges are saying no; your own panel is saying no; even you're saying no, we haven't really struck the right balance, perhaps, that changes have to be made. My question is, were you wrong then because you were not fully read in, not just on these programs, but on other programs, outside of the ones you just talked about, where we were potentially listening in on the German leaders, the Brazilian leaders and others, that suggest there were abuses, number one? And number two, if you -- if you were fully read in on these programs, is it another example of what Judy was -- Julie was getting at, with this question of credibility with the American people, that just like on health care, you like your plan; you can keep it? On surveillance, you looked the American people in the eye six months ago and said, we've got the right balance. And six months later, you're saying, maybe not. PRESIDENT OBAMA: Well, hold on a second, I -- I think it's important to note that, when it comes to the right balance on surveillance, these are a series of judgment calls that we're making every single day because we've got a whole bunch of folks whose job it is to make sure that the American people are protected. And that's a hard job because if something slips, then the question that's coming from you the next day at a press conference is, Mr. President, why didn't you catch that; why did the intelligence people allow that to slip; isn't there a way that we could have found out that in fact this terrorist attack took place. Q: (Inaudible) -- why did you say that you struck the right balance. PRESIDENT OBAMA: So the -- so the point is, Ed, not that my assessment of the 215 program has changed in terms of technically how it works. What is absolutely clear to me is that given the public debate that's taken place and the disclosures that have taken place over the last several months that this is only going to work if the American people have confidence and trust. Now, part of the challenge is, is that because of the manner in which these disclosures took place, in dribs and drabs, oftentimes shaded in a particular way, and because of some of the constraints that we've had in terms of declassifying information and getting it out there, that that trust in how many safeguards exist and how these programs are run has been diminished. So what's going to be important is to build that back up. And I take that into account in weighing how we structure these programs. So let me just be very specific on the 215 program. It is possible, for example, that some of the same information that the intelligence community feels is required to keep people safe can be obtained by having the private phone companies keep these records longer and to create some mechanism where they can be accessed in an effective fashion. That might cost more. There might need to be different checks on how those requests are made. There may be technological solutions that have to be found to do that. And the question that we're asking ourselves now is, does that make sense not only because of the fact that there are concerns about potential abuse down the road with the metadata that's being kept by a government, rather than private companies, but also does it make sense to do because people right now are concerned that maybe their phone calls are being listened to, even if they're not, and we've got to factor that in. So I -- I -- my point is -- is that the environment has changed in ways that I think require us to take that into account. But the analysis that I've been doing throughout has always been, you know, periodically looking at what we're doing and asking ourselves, are we doing this in the right way; are we making sure that we're keeping the American can people safe, number one; are we also being true to our civil liberties and our privacy and our values? Q: Well, I understand it's a tough job. PRESIDENT OBAMA: Right. Q: And God forbid there's another terror attack. Every one of us is going to be second-guessing you, and that is extremely difficult, to be in the Oval Office. PRESIDENT OBAMA: That's OK. I volunteered. Q: But as you said, you took that on. PRESIDENT OBAMA: Yeah. Q: You put it on your back. And so my question is, do you have any personal regrets? You're not addressing the fact the public statements you've made to reassure the public -- your director of national intelligence, James Clapper, months ago went up, got a question from a Democrat, not a Republican, about whether some of this was going on, and he denied it. PRESIDENT OBAMA: But does -- but Ed -- Q: Doesn't that undermine the public trust? PRESIDENT OBAMA: -- Ed, you're conflating, first of all, me and -- and Mr. Clapper -- Q: He's director of national -- and he's still on the job. PRESIDENT OBAMA: I understand. I understand. But what I'm -- what I'm saying is this: that yes, these are tough problems that I am glad to have the privilege of tackling. Your initial question was whether the statements that I made six months ago are ones that I don't stand by. And what I'm saying is that the statements I made then are entirely consistent with the statements that I make now, which is that we believed that we had scrubbed these programs and struck an appropriate balance, and there had not been evidence, and there continues not to be evidence that the particular program had been abused in how it was used and that it was a useful tool, working with other tools the intelligence community has, to ensure that if we have a thread on a potential terrorist threat, that that can be followed effectively. What I have also said, though, is that in light of the disclosures that have taken place, it is clear that whatever benefits the configuration of this particular program may have may be outweighed by the concerns that people have on its potential abuse. And if that's the case, there may be another way of skinning the cat. So we just keep on going at this stuff and saying, can we do this better? Can we do this more effectively? I think that the panels' recommendations are consistent with that. So if you -- if you had a chance to read the overall recommendations, what they were very clear about is, we need this intelligence. We can't unilaterally disarm. There are ways we can do it, potentially, that gives people greater assurance that there are checks and balances -- that there's sufficient oversight and sufficient transparency. Programs like 215 could be redesigned in ways that give you the same information when you need it without creating these potentials for abuse, and that's exactly what we should be doing, is to evaluate all these things in a very clear, specific way and moving forward on changes. And that's what I intend to do. Q: (Off mic) -- you have no regrets? PRESIDENT OBAMA: That's what I intend to do. Jon Karl. ... PRESIDENT OBAMA: Major Garrett. Q: That's quite a lead-in, Mr. President. Thank you. Rick Leggett, who is the head of the NSA task force on Edward Snowden, told "60 Minutes" that it was, quote, "worth having a conversation about granting Edward Snowden amnesty." To what degree, sir, were you pleased that he floated this trial balloon? And under what circumstances would you consider either a plea agreement or amnesty for Edward Snowden? And what do you say to Americans, sir, who after possibly being alerted to Judge Leon's decision earlier this week, reading the panel recommendations, believe Edward Snowden set in motion something that is proper and just in this country about the scope of surveillance, and should not be considered by the government a criminal? PRESIDENT OBAMA: I've got to be careful here, Major, because Mr. Snowden is under indictment. He has been charged with -- with crimes, and that's the province of the attorney general and ultimately, a judge and a jury. So I -- I can't weigh in specifically on this case at this point. I'll -- I'll make -- I'll try to see if I can get at the -- the spirit of the question, even if I can't talk about the specifics. I have said before and I believe that this is an important conversation that we needed to have. I have also said before that the way in which these disclosures happened have been -- have been damaging to the United States and damaging to our intelligence capabilities. And I think that there was a way for us to have this conversation without that damage. I'll give you just one specific example. The -- the fact of the matter is that the United States, for all our warts, is a country that abides by rule of law, that cares deeply about privacy, that cares about civil liberties, that cares about our Constitution. And as a consequence of these disclosures, we've got countries who actually do the things that Mr. Snowden says he's worried about, very explicitly -- engaging in surveillance of their own citizens, targeting political dissidents, targeting and suppressing the press, who somehow are able to sit on the sidelines and act as if it's the United States that has problems when it comes to surveillance and intelligence operations. And that's a pretty distorted view of what's going on out there. So I think that, as important and as necessary as this debate has been, it is also important to keep in mind that this has done unnecessary damage to U.S. intelligence capabilities and U.S. diplomacy. But I will leave it up to the courts and the attorney general to weigh in publicly on the specifics of Mr. Snowden's case. Q: But sir, if I could follow up, Mr. Leggett is setting this in motion, at least raising this as a topic of conversation. You, sir, would, I'm certain, be consulted if there was ever going to be a conversation about amnesty or a plea bargain for Edward Snowden. PRESIDENT OBAMA: I said -- I think that's true, Major. And I guess what I'm saying is there's -- Q: Would you rule it out forever, that you would never consider it? PRESIDENT OBAMA: What I'm saying is, is that there's a difference between Mr. Leggett saying something and the president of the United States saying something. Q: That's why I'm trying to get you (to say it ?). PRESIDENT OBAMA: That's exactly right. (Laughter.) Chuck Todd.