The Lawfare Podcast: One Year Since the Kidnapping of Elizabeth Tsurkov

[Audio Excerpt]

Emma Tsurkov

She lived in the Karrada neighborhood, for those listeners who know it. It's considered a very safe neighborhood in Baghdad. It's full of Iraqi police. There are a lot of Westerners there, bustling markets. It's considered a very safe area. She went to a coffee shop and never came back.

[Main Podcast]

Benjamin Wittes

I'm Benjamin Wittes, and this is the Lawfare Podcast, March 25th, 2024. One year ago, Elizabeth Tsurkov, a graduate student at Princeton University, was abducted in Baghdad where she was doing fieldwork by the terrorist organization, Kata’ib Hezbollah. Since that day, her sister, Emma Tsurkov, has been campaigning for and seeking her release. On Thursday, Emma Tsurkov held a rally outside the Iraqi embassy, demanding action to free her sister. Afterward, she joined me in the Virtual Jungle studio to discuss her sister's very upsetting case. Who is Kata’ib Hezbollah and why are they holding hostage an Israeli graduate student? Who is Elisabeth Tsurkov and how did she come to be in Baghdad in the first place? Which government is responsible for securing her release? Is it the Israelis, the Russians, or is it the United States’ job? And why does the United States keep providing military aid to a government that is in bed with Kata’ib Hezbollah, a designated foreign terrorist organization?

It's the Lawfare Podcast, March 25^th: One Year Since the Kidnapping of Elizabeth Tsurkov.

So, let's start at the beginning. Who is Elisabeth Tsurkov and who is Emma Tsurkov?

Emma Tsurkov

I feel like you asked two separate questions, but it's actually one.

Benjamin Wittes

Yes. For purposes of this conversation, it's an important relationship.

Emma Tsurkov

Well, also because, not just for the purposes of this conversation, but I’m Emma and my sister Elisabeth, we're a year apart. So, we've spent our entire childhood constantly right next to each other. We were always the one permanent thing in each other's life. So, it's almost hard to think of who I am without thinking about her. But, I guess, I don't know, boring answer is that Elizabeth is my sister, but also a scholar. She is doing a PhD in political science at Princeton University, studying sectarianism in the Middle East. She is also a freelance journalist and a human rights activist. Some of your listeners might know her work as someone who's been very seriously following the conflict in Syria and in Iraq and generally writing about the Middle East. She is really very tech-savvy and very good about reaching audiences online in a way that very few can, which is basically the way--it's kind of her superpower, that's how she gathered such a big following on Twitter. And she is a uniquely compassionate person, so she is able to have conversations and try to relate and understand people in ways that very few scholars of the Middle East can and do. And generally, she is a scholar who believes in the public good of scholarship, is that good scholarship should be not just for consumption through the medium of high jargon journalistic articles, but also through some contribution to the world around us.

And the boring answer about me is that I'm Emma and I'm Elizabeth's younger sister, although we often joke that she abdicated being the oldest and I took on the role of always being the pragmatic one who, like, ends up doing all the things.

Benjamin Wittes

You're responsible and she runs off to Syria and Iraq. She has a lot of the youngest child in her, I think.

Emma Tsurkov

Yeah, yeah. And I'm always the one who, if someone in our family needs to do something, it's probably going to be me who'll end up doing it. And yeah, that has always been the case. And yeah, I am risk-avoidant. And she isn't.

Benjamin Wittes

And so why are we sitting here on March 21st, 2024, talking about Elizabeth and you being her sister?

Emma Tsurkov

Because I love flying to the sea on red ice. No, I'm just kidding. Sorry, my humor is a way I deflect the seriousness and gravity of all this horror show that has been my life for the last year. And we are here talking today because exactly a year ago Kata’ib Hezbollah, which is a Shia Iran-backed militia in Iraq, kidnapped my sister and a piece of my heart and has been holding her hostage ever since.

Benjamin Wittes

Okay, so for those listeners for whom the name Kata’ib Hezbollah does not ring all the bells at once, this is the group that the United States has had repeated military interactions with over the last several months. It is an Iran-backed Shia group in Iraq. Tell us about them. You've become, against your will, something of an expert on Kata’ib Hezbollah. What do we know about them? And then we can get into how they came to be holding your sister.

Emma Tsurkov

Yeah, thank you for mentioning that I became an expert against my will because exactly a year ago today, I googled Kata’ib Hezbollah. I literally had no idea who these people are. I lived a world glorious with oblivion about who they are. But, yeah, now I know the names of many of the leaders, their pseudonyms, I can identify them in photos, and I follow their social media accounts. So Kata’ib Hezbollah is, like you said, it's a Shia militia.

Benjamin Wittes

And just to be clear for listeners, it is not Hezbollah, the Lebanese, Iran-backed, Shia southern Lebanese organization. It's its own thing in Iraq.

Emma Tsurkov

Yeah, it's not a franchise. It's its own separate, I guess, terror group. Hezbollah in Iraq, they do have a relationship with Lebanese Hezbollah because they're all part of this group of the Axis of Resistance, which are Shia militias which are aligned with the Iranian government, but they are completely separate entities.  

Kata’ib Hezbollah was designated a foreign terror organization by the State Department in 2009 during the initial fight in Iraq against the coalition forces. They participated actively in that. Then in 2014 when the popular mobilization forces were created, which is an umbrella organization for those militias. And this umbrella organization was created to coordinate the different Shia--mostly Shia, not just Shia--militias that fight against ISIS. And they were a big part of the fighting power against ISIS that led to ISIS defeat.

And in 2016 after, as ISIS war pretty much ended, the Popular Mobilization Forces was this large group of militias that are armed and have spent years at that point in combat, and it wasn't clear how exactly what direction they are going to go in. And so they were actually integrated into the Iraqi government and basically became part of the Iraqi Armed Forces. All members of the PMF, the Popular Immobilization Forces, are Iraqi government employees, they even have government pensions starting this year.

Benjamin Wittes

So your sister, just to be blunt about it, is being held by a designated foreign terrorist organization that is also a component of the Iraqi government with which the United States has both designated this group as a foreign terrorist organization, and conducts regular military actions against it, and it against us, and also funds the Iraqi government, which supports and gives pensions to its members.

Emma Tsurkov

Yeah, as the U.S. is both funding and fighting, K H. When I first got into understanding who they are, I thought I must be, like, misunderstanding it. I'm lacking some political science degrees that will help me unlock how does it makes any sense that somehow on one hand the Iraqi government is an ally of the United States, the bilateral relationship is of great strategic importance to both the U.S. and the Iraqi government, and the U.S. is sending hundreds of millions of dollars of assistance to Iraq annually. Just last year, it was 630 million. Some of it is humanitarian aid, which makes perfect sense. But also, close to 40 percent of it is actually military assistance. And in the explanation for the budgetary allocation for that, it says that this military assistance is meant to strengthen the Iraqi armed forces and help preserve Iraqi sovereignty.

However, at the same time, the Iraqi government has, as part of it, this Popular Mobilization Forces organization, and in it, not everyone within the PMF is a member of KH.

Benjamin Wittes

There are different militia components.

Emma Tsurkov

But KH is long considered the most prominent of them, and the 45th 46th, and 47th Brigade of the PMF are staffed fully by KH and essentially a lot of the control over the PMF runs through Abu Fadak, who is a KH leader.

Benjamin Wittes

So I want to shift to your sister's specific situation. And I should say for listeners, I have actually never met Elizabeth, but we're old Twitter buddies, and used to text occasionally on WhatsApp. And despite never having met her, always considered her an internet friend. A lot of people are listening to this and saying, okay, Emmett Tsurkov has a Russian name. She has an Israeli accent. So her sister must be Israeli. And Israelis don't go to Baghdad and they don't go to Syria. So walk us through how Elizabeth came to be in Baghdad in the first place a year ago today and her history in Syria and Iraq.

Emma Tsurkov

Yeah. So you're on to me with an accent. Darn it. I try so hard to cover it. I think it's also easier to understand when you meet me in person because I use my hands too much. So you were like, Oh, this one, she's an Israeli. Correct.

Yeah. So first of all, I would say that generally, Baghdad is not a frequent destination for vacations for Israelis. But I wouldn't say that there are never any Israelis in Iraq. There are journalists who cover different parts of the Middle East. And the good ones actually travel to the places that they cover.

Benjamin Wittes

But you can't fly to Iraq on an Israeli passport, except to the northern Kurdish regions, right?

Emma Tsurkov

Yeah. That's true. My sister, as am I, we’re also Russian citizens, so she used her Russian passport to enter, which is legal in Iraq. So Russian citizens are very much allowed to enter Iraq. The reason she was in Iraq is to do fieldwork for her dissertation. My sister is someone who really believes in that good research and good journalism has to be done at the level of the phenomena of interest. And now I'm telling her myself, sounding like an academic. But basically she believes that no one should be talking over someone's head to explain their life. And that if you want to understand the lives and political processes of Iraq, you need to go talk to some Iraqis to understand that. And that simply reading online or looking from above doesn't get you the full view of what is actually happening. My sister is someone who is very committed to trying to alleviate the push factors of sectarian violence. So she is really interested in how that can be done on an interpersonal level. That's as an academic. And like I said, as a journalist, she frequently lamented how flattened coverage of the Middle East can be when it's done without actually traveling to the place of conflict. And it's true that when someone covers areas of conflict, they often travel to areas of conflict. That doesn't tell some risk, but she wasn't there on some joyride seeking excitement or something like that.

Benjamin Wittes

She was living there.

Emma Tsurkov

Yeah. She was there doing fieldwork. She was interviewing people for her dissertation, transcribing them, writing it into memos, writing it into chapters of her dissertations. She wasn't there just trying to do something stupid or brave. She just strongly believes that that's how research on Iraq should be done. And I noticed myself switching almost to past tense. And I keep reminding myself that I should not do that.

Benjamin Wittes

So, before she was in Iraq, she had spent a lot of time in Syria. She was there for quite a while, right?

Emma Tsurkov

So she made some visits to Syria. She spent a lot of time on the Turkish border next to Syria. But in Syria herself, she visited a few times, but briefly.

Benjamin Wittes

I see. Okay. So, one thing Elizabeth is not is a U.S. citizen, but she is a student at an American university, which is to say she's a graduate student at Princeton. And so I guess in the broadest sense, I want to get into the circumstances that we know of her kidnapping. But what is the U.S. interest here? This is an Israeli scholar at an American university traveling on a Russian passport. And you're here in America, in Washington, advocating for American intervention or work to get her out. And why isn't the right answer to that, hey she's got an Israeli government to advocate for her, she's got a Russian government to advocate for her. Why is this our problem?

Emma Tsurkov

The flights to Moscow are way more expensive and the weather there is so much worse. No, I'm just kidding. Like I said, being flippant is the way I deal with the horror of it.

So let me unpack that multifaceted question. So, let me start by the countries of citizenship. So, the, the Russian government, as your listeners fully know, is a little preoccupied with other global events, and I have been in touch with the Russian government, but that has not yielded my sister's freedom as of yet. So, that's currently not a solution to her continued kidnapping. And in terms of the Israeli government, the Israeli government, as your listeners know, is also preoccupied--

Benjamin Wittes

--with some other hostages.

Emma Tsurkov

Yes, and other concerns as well. But more importantly, Israel and Iraq do not have formal ties. In fact, Iraq was one of the countries that declared war with Israel at the time the state of Israel was founded in 1948. And one of the, I think, two only countries that never reached a ceasefire agreement with Israel. So, generally speaking, there is no relationship between the two countries, and there is an anti-normalization law in Iraq that was passed, I want to say, in 2022. But I would have to fact-check myself on that. That basically imposes long prison sentences for any Iraqis who would come into any contact with Israelis or promote normalization with Israel in any shape or form. So there is just very strong stigma against having any type of interaction with Israel and Israelis. So at this point, any type of effort by the Israeli government to get my sister out would actually be more harmful to her situation than it would help because no one in Iraq is currently interested in doing any favors to the Israeli government.

Now, when it comes to the U.S. interest here, so I have a threefold answer to that question. So, the first one is that my sister is a journalist and an activist and publishes a lot with U.S.-based media organizations and is generally someone--so, the U.S. has a strong commitment to journalistic freedom and freedom of speech. And that global value includes exactly that, the fight for the freedom of journalists around the world. In addition to that, as you mentioned, she is a doctoral student at Princeton. She was in Baghdad and was kidnapped while doing fieldwork for her dissertation. Princeton is a partially federally funded institution, and I would say that generally the appeal that institutions of higher learning in the U.S. make, in big part, is that basically the ability to attract talented scholars from all over the world benefits American academia and production of knowledge. And actually, Princeton is a great example of exactly that. No one exemplifies those values more than my sister. She is an expert on the Middle East, in part because she is from the Middle East. So she's exactly the type of student that American higher education wants to attract and that ties her to the U.S. She has lived in the U.S. for the past seven years, even before she started the, the PhD. So, she is a resident of New Jersey, although she is not a U.S. citizen. She is living in the U.S. just on the student visa through Princeton.

Now, the third component of, I think, what makes her a U.S. interest, and, I think, the strongest one, is that the U.S. has the most leverage here. The U.S. is providing direct financial assistance to the Iraqi government. A lot of it. And that means that the U.S. has the ability to get her out. Because that assistance should come with some measure of accountability of where that money goes. And the fact that the U.S. provides hundreds of millions of dollars in military assistance to the Iraqi government means that the Iraqi government should make sure that that money does not end up in the hands of terrorists.

And, I wanted to add one more small thing is that in addition to KH being part of the Popular Mobilization Forces. KH also has a political wing called the Harakat Hoquq Movement, the rights movement basically. And it's a political movement. They have six members in the Iraqi parliament. And they're in fact part of the governing coalition of the current prime minister, Sudani. Very often when I tell people that my sister is being held hostage by a Shia militia in Iraq, they imagine some insular group hiding in the mountains, keeping her in a cave. No, they're roaming the streets of Baghdad, they are in parliament, they're not hiding, they're not ashamed. They absolutely know that there is no accountability.

Benjamin Wittes

And they're also killing American soldiers.

Emma Tsurkov

Yes. They do that too.

Benjamin Wittes

Alright. Tell us about what we know about the circumstances of her abduction a year ago.

Emma Tsurkov

She was kidnapped, actually eight days after having spinal cord surgery. While she was doing the field work in Iraq she had a slipped disc, bad luck. She was in so much pain she couldn't travel out of Iraq to have a surgery anywhere else. So, she had the spinal cord surgery in Baghdad, which, yeah, is bad idea. And she was recovering from surgery and she just regained even the ability to go outside. And she went out to a coffee shop in the neighborhood where she lived. It's the Karrada neighborhood, for those listeners who know it. It's considered a very safe neighborhood in Baghdad. It's full of Iraqi police. There are a lot of Westerners there, bustling markets. It's considered a very safe area. She went to a coffee shop and never came back.

Benjamin Wittes

And for a long time, there was simply no word of anything. There was no indication whether she was alive. And then, there was, I guess I want to say like six months ago or something like that, there was a video of her released. So give us a sense of the timeline of what happened over the course of the year. When did you know she had been abducted? When did you know that she was alive? And then let's talk about the video.

Emma Tsurkov

So, initially I was the one who raised the alarm about her missing.

Benjamin Wittes

And you just knew she was missing because you hadn't heard from her, or?

Emma Tsurkov

Yeah, and I sent her a video of my son, her only nephew, and he is the apple of her eye. And even if she could be grumpy, tired, busy, or mad at me, but if I sent her his pictures, she always responds very quickly. So I sent her a video 12 hours later. She still has not responded. I knew something was off. And I started making phone calls and trying to figure out what's happening. I even had a friend call hospitals in Baghdad asking if they--So I initially hoped, I guess it's I was sick to think that, I hoped that maybe she was in some car accident or because she is still recovering from the surgery. That she, I don't know, like passed out or something and is lying unconscious in some hospital in Baghdad. And that was ruled out. Then I contacted Israeli, Russian, and American authorities, and then gradually I was informed that she was in fact kidnapped by KH and that she's alive.

Benjamin Wittes

So, you kept it quiet for a long time and I think it was finally announced by New Lines, if I'm remembering right, which is a publication with which she had worked.

Emma Tsurkov

Let me correct that. It was announced by The Cradle, which is actually a media outlet with a not fully clear ownership, but it's aligned with the resistance axis. So, with Muqāwamah. So, it wasn't New Line, who made it public. Initially, The Cradle made it public.

Benjamin Wittes

I see. I did not know that. Okay.

Emma Tsurkov

Yeah, and then there has been this weird misinformation that somehow it's the Israeli government that announced that she's being held hostage. That's not true. Actually, the Israeli government responded to The Cradle publishing it and after The Cradle publishing it, the New York Times were about to publish a piece that they have had for a while and kept from actually publishing it because I have asked them to.

Benjamin Wittes

And why were you keen to keep it quiet?

Emma Tsurkov

Because I didn't want her to become, for all of this to become a spectacle of global proportions because I had hoped that this can be resolved quietly without raising the stakes. And yeah, so I tried to keep it quiet for as long as possible. Then The Cradle decided that July 5th is the day that they're going make it public. And then once the New York Times were about to publish it, then the Israeli government issued a statement. So we didn't choose for this to become public, nor the timing of it becoming public.

Benjamin Wittes

And when did the video--the video was released in the fall, is that right?

Emma Tsurkov

November 13th.

Benjamin Wittes

And the video, for those who haven't seen it, is a classic hostage video. It must have been both very difficult to watch, but also encouraging in the sense that she was alive and apparently unhurt. So talk about the video and what it meant to see it.

Emma Tsurkov

Yeah, so the video was released, like I said, on November 13th, and it was just appeared on the Al Arabiya network Twitter account. And the first moment I realized what it is, I got really scared because it was 30 minutes after Hamas released a video of an Israeli soldier, Noa Marciano, first talking to the camera, and then the video ended with her dead body. And I just froze in fear. But then I watched it, and it's the worst type of rollercoaster that one can imagine. Because the content of it was horrifying, because in it, they made her confess to being both a CIA and a Mossad agent, somehow at the same time because that's a thing that happens in the world. And really bizarre things that really reflect the inner world of these militias and the conspiracy, really absurd ones they believe in.

So it's on one hand terrifying to see her say that, first because I know her and I know they had to torture her to get that out of her. There is no way that she would just agree to say those absurd things. She's someone who cares about the truth way too much. She wouldn't even tell white lies just to make people feel better about themselves. I knew that she wouldn't say something so absurd if they didn't torture her into doing that. So, that's horrifying. And, yeah, I just…the way she looks in the video. She looks exhausted and worn down and despondent, and she's very rarely any of those things. But on the other hand, she's alive, and she's her. So, they haven't emptied her of herself, if that makes sense. There were a few moments in the video where she makes her like, sarcastic half smile, when she smiles with only half of her face. And I'm like, oh, you're there. That's really encouraging. You are still in there. They have not worn you down completely.

And when she, at the end of the video, she calls on her family and friends. Interestingly, not any of the governments that she supposedly works for to do everything to secure her release. And she names us, members of her family. And when she says our names, there is a smile on her face that was really heartwarming to see. But yeah, it's generally really…watching that video, and here I'll have to confess that I've watched it way too many hundreds of times, that…it's, yeah. Each time I see it, it's some horrible combination of missing her and being happy she's alive and being mortified at what she's going through.

Benjamin Wittes

You mentioned both that the Israeli government was a bit preoccupied with other things right now, but also that the circumstances of the release of that video strongly suggest that Kata’ib Hezbollah is trying to glom itself on to the holding of other Israeli hostages by Hamas. Has there been any movement of any kind since the release of that video? Or are we basically still in the same situation that we were in November 13th?

Emma Tsurkov

So there has been a movement in the sense that I've been really focused on getting more congressional attention to my sister’s situation and the funding of Kata’ib Hezbollah through the Iraqi government by the U.S. And actually, the fact is that KH has taken such a prominent role in attacking U.S. facilities and then the fatal attack on Tower 22 in Jordan, which killed three American soldiers, all that was conducted by KH as well. So that was actually a moment at which suddenly a lot of people knew who Kata’ib Hezbollah is because when I was in DC in September, I had to explain to people what is Kata’ib Hezbollah. When I was here in February, a lot of people were like, “Oh yeah, those people.”

So generally, there is more attention to Kata’ib Hezbollah, more attention to the fact that they are part of the Iraqi government. And in addition to that there is increased, in parallel to the increasing attention from Congress, there is also increased concern on the Iraqi government side. And the way I know that is because just last month, they hired three new lobbying firms. Yeah, the Iraqi government signed contracts to the tune of 1.6 million dollars in contracts with D.C. lobbying firms to improve the standing of Iraq in D.C. So, clearly, that is not a negligible sum of money, especially for the Iraqi government. So, clearly, they understand that they have a problem here. But instead of managing a PR problem, could just let her go.

Benjamin Wittes

Right, although their PR problem is broader than your sister, right? Their PR problem is that they are both themselves partners and hostages of Kata’ib Hezbollah and they're twisted in knots trying to manage that.

Emma Tsurkov

I would say that letting, getting my sister free would go a long way to improving their PR problem.

Benjamin Wittes

I could not agree with that more. You have spent a lot of time in Washington over the last few months.

Emma Tsurkov

More than I ever wanted.

Benjamin Wittes

What institutions here have been helpful?

Emma Tsurkov

It's a very good question and one that is harder for me to answer as of yesterday. So, I have been making progress in raising congressional attention to my sister's situation and I got a lot of support from different members of Congress who genuinely care about my sister's well-being, find it abhorrent that a terror organization that is killing Americans and holding my sister hostage gets to benefit from U.S. assistance. And generally, kind people who know my sister and care about her. Each time I come to D.C., I find more people who know her and everyone who knows her loves her. So every time someone tells me, “Oh, I know your sister,” I always breathe a sigh of relief because I know, oh, they're committed because she's truly amazing. And I would say that there have been a lot of helpful people.

But at the same time, I was actually disappointed when at the rally that I held today in front of the Iraqi Embassy, calling on the Iraqi Embassy to do more and to stop delaying and giving empty promises, we were expecting more congressional presence, but it seems like there is some resistance that's rooted in fear of disturbing the relationship with Iraq. The Iraqi Prime Minister is coming to Washington D.C. in April.

Benjamin Wittes

And this is the same Iraqi Prime Minister whose coalition includes the party that Kata’ib Hezbollah is the military wing of, essentially.

Emma Tsurkov

Yes, yes. They are his allies. They are his friends. He knows these people. And he’s going come shake President Biden's hand while the other one holds keys to my sister's shackles. That's the part that just breaks my heart And it really upsets me that he is going to come here and get the VIP treatment and be treated as a legitimate leader of a sovereign country, yet somehow, at the same time, he gets away with just saying like, “Oh, yeah, she's in Iraq, but we can't do anything.” So which is it? Do you have the ability to exercise minimal sovereignty over your own capital? Or don't you? And if you do, then get her home. And if you don't, then why should anyone be inspired to send you another single dollar of military assistance?

Benjamin Wittes

So, a lot of people listening to this are going to say, they're going to make a lot of, and I actually did about Elizabeth, make a lot of political assumptions about her. She was very outspoken politically, she was very—

Emma Tsurkov

She is.

Benjamin Wittes

Yes, indeed. She hasn't been speaking much. She has been very outspoken politically. She's very left. And I assumed whenever I would see her Twitter, that she, and you, whose existence I did not know about, therefore came out of this Tel Aviv-y, Ashkenazi lefty environment. And the last extended text exchange that I had with her, she was in Jerusalem before she went back to Iraq. And she told me a bit of her story, which, was that you guys grew up in a far-right settlement. And she really broke with that, but that a part of her background. And I'm interested in your, getting back to her, to her trajectory.

How do you go from being, you guys are the daughters of a very famous Russian-Jewish dissident. How do you go from growing up in that community in a right-wing settlement to being an all-but native Arabic speaker who goes to Syria and Iraq to understand conflict zones by interacting with people? That's quite a journey.

Emma Tsurkov

I guess you can see that as a journey, but I would say that to me it makes perfect sense because it stems from the same worldview of critical thinking. And I think more than our parents, they didn't necessarily indoctrinate us to any one worldview, but showed us by example as well to challenge every truth proclaimed by any structure of power. So, as often happens when people are taught to be critical thinkers, they also criticize the structures that they are part of. And in this sense, everyone who knows my sister knows how intellectually honest she is and how she takes very principled positions. None of them are tribalist or lazy. She truly believes in the values she holds dear. And this is no exception. She fundamentally believes in the goodness and deservedness of happiness of every person, no matter what religion, race, or country they were born into. And that is something that's perfectly consistent with going to Iraq to study Iraqis, because to understand conflict, you need to go talk to the parties to the conflict.

So we're definitely not part of some Tel Aviv-y elite. But at the same time, I would say that my sister is not at all a dogmatic person. It's not like she subscribes to some worldview and is never willing to change her mind. In fact, people who follow her on Twitter, of which there are many, if you go back to the decade of her tweets, you can see her position evolving on different issues because she's someone who's so compassionate and intellectually curious. She is very open to changing her mind.

Benjamin Wittes

We're a year in to her captivity. She doesn't seem to be the subject of any, we have these very high-profile hostage negotiations between Israel and Hamas. We hear almost nothing about negotiations to free her. What is the mechanism? Is it going to be U.S. pressure related to a larger concern about Kata’ib Hezbollah killing Americans? Is it the intervention of some outside party? What is the mechanism that you imagine making this happen?

Emma Tsurkov

Yeah. So thank you for asking that because I think that's a crucial point here. The situation is complex, but the solution is in some ways very simple. So, the Iraqi government receives a lot of U.S. assistance. And Kata’ib Hezbollah is part of the Iraqi government apparatus. The Iraqi prime minister knows the leaders of Kata’ib Hezbollah. He knows where to find them. In the past, he has actually intervened in cases when they have abducted people and got them released. So, this isn't some convoluted, four dimensional chess game in which a bunch of different parties need to negotiate some complex solution. My sister comes home after someone in D.C. decides to pick up the phone and make a stern enough demand of the Iraqi government to let her go because this is untenable. The end.

That is literally all it would take, and that is a very simple solution to a very complex problem, but it can be done. And the Iraqi prime minister has been trying to get a White House visit for a very long time. He finally received it. This is an amazing opportunity for the U.S. government to tell the Iraqi prime minister that any type of meeting with the president is conditional on my sister's freedom. That's all it would take.

Benjamin Wittes

Do you have any indication that such a message has been sent?

Emma Tsurkov

No. But I would want it to be. That's all it would take, literally.

Benjamin Wittes

And if such a message had been sent, do you think you would know, or is it possible that the State Department, the White House, is communicating exactly this to the Iraqis, but to you they're not advertising that, because why do it until you have a success?

Emma Tsurkov

That would be a very optimistic point of view. I seriously doubt it, simply because when the Iraqis feel pressure, they show it. So, I currently do not see them sufficiently worried. They think that this is a problem they can just wait out, and it will go away. That they can just ignore this, and have their State visit, and have very nice dinners, and handshakes, and conversations about the importance of the bilateral relationship. They simply are not sufficiently motivated. And the tell would be if they got motivated. So far, I have not seen that, sadly.

Benjamin Wittes

We're going to leave it there. Emma Tsurkov, we are wishing your sister all the best and you as well. I couldn't admire more the work that you've been doing for the last year. And while the situation is horrible, getting to know you in the context of it has been genuinely lovely. Thank you for joining us.

Emma Tsurkov

Thank you so much for having me, drawing attention to this. And if anyone is interested in helping, I would welcome you to go to the website of the campaign to free my sister. The website is bringelizabethhome.com. Sign up and help us bring her back. Thank you so much.

Benjamin Wittes

The Lawfare Podcast is produced in cooperation with the Brookings Institution. Our audio engineer this episode is me. I did it myself. And so any problems, just blame on me. One thing I did not do myself, however, is promote the Lawfare Podcast. That's your job. So please, tweet the Lawfare Podcast. Share us on Facebook, on Bluesky, on Mastodon, on Threads, on Instagram, TikTok videos, Pinterest, all the things, YouTube. Share the Lawfare Podcast.

The Lawfare Podcast is edited by Jen Patja. Our music is performed by Sophia Yan. And as always, thanks for listening.